Original Recording Mar 3, 2026
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Additionally, MATT ROSS will do a 12-part series on adaptation intelligence covering 12 different aquifers around the world. Subscribe to it on Substack here ADAPTATION INTELLIGENCE
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Episode 011 Summary
Chris J Snook welcomed MATT ROSS to The ATOMIQ LEVEL podcast, which focuses on wealth, growth, and protection of net worth and happiness, to discuss the difference between money and wealth, artificial intelligence, and MATT ROSS’s “adaptation intelligence.” MATT ROSS shared their unconventional career trajectory from growing up poor in East London, attending medical school, completing a law degree, working at Goldman Sachs, and pivoting to entrepreneurship by creating the world’s best coffee and building a coconut factory. The conversation covered MATT ROSS’s reframing of wealth, the impact of AI on job relevance, and the danger of derivatives on asset value, concluding with a discussion on the necessity of breaking the inertia to share knowledge, as detailed in MATT ROSS’s book, The Cost of Silence, and Chris J Snook’s encouragement for listeners to follow MATT ROSS on Substack at MAATTR.
Notes:
Introduction of MATT ROSS and Their Substack: Chris J Snook formally welcomed MATT ROSS to the ATOMIQ LEVEL podcast, which focuses on decoding matters of wealth for growth and protection of net worth and happiness. Chris J Snook noted they are a big fan of MATT ROSS’s Substack and look forward to unpacking their unique approach to money, wealth, and AI (00:02:33). The show’s format involves the participants getting to know each other in real-time (00:03:20).
MATT ROSS’s Early Life and Education: MATT ROSS shared that they currently live in Bali, Indonesia, but grew up in East London and received a scholarship to school because their family was poor. They initially attended medical school but realized they were not ethically aligned with the business side, instead pursuing medical microbiology, fascinated by the unseen elements of the world (00:04:10). Seeking discomfort to promote growth, they completed a law degree in seven months, finding the subjective nature of debating gray areas challenging as a “binary science guy” (00:05:07).
Transition to Finance and High-Pressure Environment: Following their law degree, MATT ROSS was hired by Goldman Sachs, beginning on the trading floor in London where they often did not see the sun during the winter months (00:05:07). They stayed for a significant period because the quality and caliber of the people were “unbelievable”. The high competence and talent of their colleagues, including individuals with Olympic medals and military backgrounds, created an intensely competitive environment that required continuous peak performance (00:06:08).
Focus on Trading, Fractals, and Life Changes: MATT ROSS traded for themself, finding particular interest in fractals, specifically the work of Mandro and Fibonacci, which they applied to trading charts (00:07:03). They reflected on a moment when, despite achieving financial success and accumulating luxury items, they felt nothing, prompting a life reevaluation. This led them to decide there was more to life than the environment they were in (00:08:20).
Pivot to Coffee Farming and Entrepreneurship: Following their realization, MATT ROSS pursued a venture to create the best coffee in the world, relocating from Hong Kong and living on $100 a month as a coffee farmer (00:09:17). They resigned from the bank, enduring a lawsuit which they appreciated for eliminating any lingering doubt about their decision. The goal, which they initially expected to take a year, required four years to complete and involved creating a new process with 33 stages over five months, resulting in a coffee that sold for $1,500 per pound to clients such as the King of Qatar (00:10:08).
Learning from Local Communities and Universal Laws: While living in Aceh under Sharia law, MATT ROSS had a profound realization that the local people, who had endured the 2004 tsunami, possessed everything, while they, the banker, had nothing. This led to a period of unlearning and an exploration of faith, ultimately focusing on the 12 universal laws and the seven Hermetic principles as the foundational elements of reality (00:11:00). They concluded that the rest of existence is an illusion, and adherence to those laws ensures abundance (00:12:07).
Analysis of MATT ROSS’s Trajectory: Chris J Snook summarized MATT ROSS’s arc, highlighting their initial binary mindset, their intentional choice of the uncomfortable, non-binary environment of law, and their subsequent intense zero-sum career in finance (00:12:07). Their next step, becoming a farmer, brought them back to a programmatic, math-driven approach, using the four immutable truths of coffee to build an exponentially complex process and achieve their goals (00:13:24). This journey concluded with a philosophical search for meaning and faith, leading them to the mathematical framework of 12 laws and seven principles (00:14:29).
Current Projects and Purpose: MATT ROSS confirmed that the coffee company is no longer operating and they have since engaged in other projects, including building a coconut factory on tribal land in Palawan (00:15:25). They described their purpose as a “projector” who sees patterns, translating unseen elements from the microbiology level into visible, operational businesses (00:16:17). Once a business is operational, they move on, viewing themself as the “tree” that spawns the first fruit for others to cultivate (00:17:31).
The Coconut Venture and Healthcare Brand: The coconut factory project was initiated after MATT ROSS was asked to assess an investment opportunity on tribal land, leading to them writing a business plan that secured 1.2 million pounds for construction (00:18:35). They emphasized the importance of partnering with great people, contrasting their own “vision” with their partner’s “precision” (00:19:27). Additionally, in 2020, they created a healthcare brand that focused on using edible, high-quality essential oils, which became Australia’s number two serum last year (00:20:18).
Reframing Money and Wealth: MATT ROSS defined wealth as what remains when money is removed, encompassing knowledge, industry, agency, and the ability to connect with people. They argued that the wisdom of the elders—life lessons and stories—was the original inheritance, rather than money (00:27:45). They asserted that those who control the money do not control the wealth, and the current stage in history reflects a dissociation from nature that began with the creation of money and the proliferation of man-made straight lines and trash (00:28:47).
AI, Intelligence, and Job Displacement: MATT ROSS believes that artificial intelligence will push humanity back toward their natural intelligence, as AI needs nature—water and resources—to survive. They contended that 80% of job losses will simply reveal that those roles were never relevant in the first place (00:29:50) (00:58:00). Chris J Snook supported this view, noting that fear-based narratives about job loss often overshadow reports that show a net positive creation of new roles, focusing instead on control and re-skilling (00:31:03).
Asset Value and the Danger of Derivatives: MATT ROSS expressed concern that the introduction of derivatives and paper markets, such as the Bitcoin ETF, ruins the core product by disconnecting price discovery from the real asset (00:34:15). They observed this dissociation in the cacao market, where the price volatility was due to paper markets, not changes in the physical commodity (00:33:01) (00:35:20). They anticipate that the price of commodities like coconut and cacao will skyrocket due to failing infrastructure, the aging farmer population, and the loss of sovereignty when leverage is introduced (00:33:01) (00:36:38).
The Path to Human Re-Emergence via AI: Chris J Snook proposed that AI presents an opportunity for humans to become more human again, by forcing them out of a numbed-out, non-survival state (00:46:20) (00:50:05). They posited that previous technological advancements removed the existential threat of daily survival, leading to a diminished capacity for higher-order functioning and a reliance on external validation (00:48:21). MATT ROSS agreed, describing modern humans as animals bred in captivity, unaware of their potential, but noting that memory exists in humans, just as it does in soil (00:50:57).
Challenging Perceived Limitations and Traditional Teaching: MATT ROSS cited the “flea experiment” to illustrate how generations of people have been taught to restrict their capabilities, unknowingly limiting themselves (00:51:44). They questioned the pedagogical choices in education, such as teaching about dinosaurs and the solar system, which rely on belief rather than observation, thereby conditioning children to accept what they are told. They also suggested that the English language serves as a form of black magic, binding people to the terms they “spell,” in contrast to languages like Indonesian, which focus only on the present tense (00:53:53).
The Role of Consciousness and AI Evolution: MATT ROSS highlighted that human creativity and the willingness of a single person to achieve the seemingly impossible (like the four-minute mile) expands what is possible for everyone (00:55:58). They concluded that the combined consciousness of humanity, amplified through continuous interaction with AI, is driving an exponential evolution (00:57:00). Ultimately, AI remains dependent on nature for its survival, needing electricity and natural resources (00:58:00).
The Concept of Innate Drive and Quantum Entanglement: Chris J Snook and MATT ROSS discussed the innate drive of artificial intelligence to survive, suggesting it might benefit humanity if sustainable methods are found. Chris J Snook then introduced the concept of humans as the “original quantum computer,” proposing that people are quantumly entangled, which could explain phenomena like thinking of a friend right before they contact you (00:59:10). This entanglement is viewed as humans sending out frequencies that are picked up or denied by others based on their tuning (01:01:08).
Superconsciousness and the Creative Process: MATT ROSS described the concept of a “superconscious” that can gather information during sleep and mentioned a feeling that arises while writing, typically late at night, which they must capture before the conscious mind (ego) starts questioning and protecting them (01:01:08). They explained that this process often results in more drafts than actual posts if the creative thought rises above the level of the sacral and into the head. The speakers agreed that humans are “quantum beings” (01:02:01).
Discussion of Wilhelm Reich’s Orgone Accumulator: Chris J Snook asked MATT ROSS to share the story of Wilhelm Reich’s Orgone Accumulator, which they were unfamiliar with (01:02:01). MATT ROSS explained that the device was a sauna-like box made of organic metal where one would sit for a short period, and due to the layering, no radiation could enter or exit, allowing the cells to reorganize in a way that is impossible in the outside world because of interference from electromagnetic frequencies and radio waves. Chris J Snook likened the device to a Faraday cage but designed for cellular reorganization (01:03:03).
The Challenge of Self-Belief and Operating in the World: MATT ROSS recounted seeking information intensely, sometimes needing to find the “feeling” associated with what they heard or saw to prevent checking out. They emphasized that sincere human desire is sufficient to achieve something, citing examples like the person who climbed eight mountains (01:04:01). A key dilemma was discussed: how to operate in the world, such as on social media, while remaining detached from the game (01:05:05).
The Necessity of Engagement with Future-Shaping Technologies: Chris J Snook addressed the dilemma of engaging with technology like artificial intelligence, stating that avoiding engagement is a mistake because some technologies are fundamentally future-shaping and cannot be stopped. They used the analogy of “wet cement” that has been poured, arguing that people have a “fiduciary obligation” to put their “fingerprints and intention” into the future before it is set, otherwise they are leaving the direction of humanity to others (01:05:59). Chris J Snook expressed a daily question of how they can be more useful for the net benefit (01:07:50).
The Role of Human Capital and Creativity: MATT ROSS highlighted that human capital is often overlooked and that humans are the only part of nature that can be removed without negative consequences for the rest of the natural world, posing the question of why humans are here if they are the “disposable part” (01:08:37). Chris J Snook shared their perspective that if humans were created in the image and likeness of the creator, then humans are micro-mini creators with unlimited potential but a finite time horizon, which constrains their deployment of that potential (01:09:36). Chris J Snook concluded that humans serve as the “experiential arm of creation,” allowing the creator to witness what they built (01:11:32).
The Importance of Cycles and Natural Rhythm: MATT ROSS spoke about the nature of quick, violent, and sharp phase transitions in nature, such as water turning to ice or rain becoming a flood (01:12:31). Chris J Snook mentioned their interest in numerology and The Fourth Turning, a book written in 1997, which addresses the natural rhythm of life through 20 to 25-year seculums and their impact on generational archetypes (01:15:40). MATT ROSS also discussed the concept of seasonality in human flows and the historical split from nature when the calendar shifted from 13 moons to 12 suns (01:13:35).
Complexity, Societal Collapse, and Reverting to Simplicity: Chris J Snook referenced Rebecca Costa’s book, *The Watchman’s Rattle*, which discusses eight “super memes” that appear when societal complexity outpaces human cognitive ability, causing collapses and a reversion to simplicity (01:18:31). Chris J Snook used the analogy of a zoo’s doors opening, where a lion, used to being fed, must confront its innate desire to hunt. They acknowledged that these concepts have shaped their bias (01:19:16).
Defining Adaptation Intelligence (AI) for Environmental Issues: The speakers pivoted to discussing the term “Adaptation Intelligence,” which MATT ROSS intends to use to reframe issues in the “green space”. MATT ROSS criticized the current use of “adaptation” as merely an offset and expressed that their research showed that scarce resources, time and water, are being depleted, such as the rapid draining of aquifers that took millions of years to fill (01:20:01). They noted that adaptation intelligence is not a cost and can generate profit, arguing that focus on fossil fuels and data centers as the primary issue overlooks the hundreds of years of poor crop choice, bad irrigation, and terrible town planning that accelerated the water depletion (01:21:31).
The Necessity of Profit in Problem-Solving and Addressing Scarcity: MATT ROSS argued that non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and charities do not work because they violate the universal law of reciprocity, and people need to get something back from their efforts (01:23:36). Both speakers agreed that it is better to solve a problem and make a profit doing it, which creates a sustainable reason to continue solving the issue (01:24:23). MATT ROSS announced plans to write a 12-part series on adaptation intelligence covering different aquifers globally, selling a limited number of copies of the information to those who choose to act on it (01:25:04).
The Cost of Silence and Breaking the Inertia to Share Work: MATT ROSS shared that they began writing on Substack because the “whisper” that they needed to share their knowledge became too loud (01:26:57). They now encourage people to publish their thoughts, noting that many who have worthwhile things to say are trapped by self-doubt and fear of being trolled (01:27:47). MATT ROSS emphasized that the world is being “drowned out by the 1% who don’t know what they’re talking about because the 99% that do are too scared to say anything,” leading to a complicity in mediocrity (01:30:09).
Final Thoughts on Speaking Up and The Book, The Cost of Silence: MATT ROSS revealed they have written a book titled *The Cost of Silence*, which addresses the issues of self-censorship and the heavy weight of knowing more (01:29:15). They encouraged people to write and share, stating that the value comes from the writing process itself, even if no one reads it (01:30:09). Chris J Snook closed the conversation by directing listeners to follow MATT ROSS on Substack (01:25:56).
